Advocating Overthrow of Government: What is it?

Submitted by Sue Basko on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 2:09am

Advocating Overthrow of Government: What is it?

by Sue Basko

In some of the Occupy groups, the question has come up as to whether a stated commitment to nonviolence is needed, and if the groups can be open to those espousing force or violence. To help form an answer, please read the law below and then consult with a lawyer about your group's situation and who might be in it. The federal penal code statute on Advocating Overthrow of Government seems self-explanatory, and here it is:

TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 115 § 2385

§ 2385. ADVOCATING OVERTHROW OF GOVERNMENT

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

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6 Comments

Thanks Sue for posting this.

Submitted by Mahayana on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 4:17pm

Thanks Sue for posting this. I know you're not a constitutional lawyer, but would this very code be applicable to those representatives, senators and presidents who have passed legislation, or expressed desire to pass legislation that outright violates our civil liberties that are outlined in the constitution? (Patriot Act, NDAA, etc...)

I guess this is all dependent on what one's definition of government is. My definition of government is a body or institution created by the people and controlled by the people in order to implement and enforce the constitution. The individuals that make up our government are ever changing therefore ulitimately goverment is the voice of the people bound by the laws of the constitution.

Passing legislation that blatantly violates the core values and foundation (due process, heabes corpus, etc..) of our country & constitution is in itself an attempt at overthrowing our government. The individuals that participated in the passing of these laws are not exempt from the law. They have engaged in treasonous activity and should be punished to the full extent of the law. Title 18, part 1 Ch 115 section 2385 was created to protect us from these very people who have taken an oath to protect & uphold the constitution but have done the opposite.

I am not for "overthrowing government" but I am for the immediate removal and punishment of any individual in government who has broken the law. Strangely and what complicates matters is that the majority of government has violated their oath to uphold the constitution. Like a cancer, corruption has spread to every sector and arm of this government. Can we legally rid our government of this pervasive cancer? Absolutely. It will need to start with the impeachment of many of our senators & representatives.

The declaration of Independence states:

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Those enlisted in the military take an oath that states:

"I solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

When and if the time comes, we will hopefully have those who have sworn to protect this nation on the right side. If that is the case, there will be no need for unecesarry violence - just enforcement of the law that has been put in place by the founding fathers.

"When Injustice Becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty"

When I was younger, I was VERY anti-American. It wasn't until recently I realized I actually don't hate this country- I just hate the evil people that have infiltrated our government and what they have turned this country into.

The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves - in their separate, and individual capacities. -Abe

Reply to Mahayana

Submitted by Sue Basko on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:59pm

The Overthrow of Government law does not apply to legislators passing laws that go against the Constitution, like the NDAA, because the law above is with regard to use of force or violence. There are real ways to go about getting the NDAA repealed and a direct goal of doing so would probably be most efficient. It is really bad law. I think they most likely passed the law so they could pass the appropriations part of the bill, thinking they could repeal the NDAA later. I think it should be illegal to put Trojan Horses into any bill. Period. Time and time again, the worst laws have snuck in as Trojan Horses hidden deep within bills that are too long and too complex.

The reason I posted the Overthrow of Government law above is to let people know it is a law, and what it says. We have seen some of the less likely laws being used, such as the lynching charges against a man at a street protest. That's just ridiculous and I am very glad the national press has called attention to this abuse of law.

Another law being used on Occupy protesters is CONSPIRACY. This has been used on protest groups for as long as I can remember -- and it can be quite serious. I wrote a blog post on CONSPIRACY and it is here: http://occupylosangeles.org/?q=node/5949 Back in the olden days at the Chicago 7 Conspiracy trial, some of the "conspirators" had never even met or talked with each other until the first day of the trial. Conspiracy law is a weird thing and it is good to know about it so you don't get tripped up in what someone else is planning.

You can see a comprehensive list of the CA law sections used most against protesters on Page 24 of the booklet attached on the post at this link -- it is a police booklet on how to do Crowd Management in protests and riots : http://occupypeace.blogspot.com/2012/01/crowd-management-and-civil-disob...

Sue Basko, Lawyer

OCCUPY PEACE - Legal Info on How to Hold a Peaceful Protest or Occupation

Misleading title of article

Submitted by pjmaxx on Mon, 01/30/2012 - 2:56am

"Advocating Overthrow of Government: What is it?" is the title of the article.

It is to call for political revolution; to preach the propriety of dismantling the existing government. Such is not, in itself, a crime.

Only if the means advocated are violent is there a crime.

Oddly, however, the article is titled "Advocating Overthrow of Government: What is it?" as if its content simply defines the fact and does not set forth the law which may or may not pertain to any given set of facts (depending on the means advocated in a particular case).

This is a problem; the title is misleading.

"The reason I posted the

Submitted by Mahayana on Sun, 01/29/2012 - 9:08pm

"The reason I posted the Overthrow of Government law above is to let people know it is a law, and what it says."

The interesting thing is that US citizens are more inclined to break the laws that might indict them on charges of advocating overthrow of government because our government itself is breaking laws. I totally get the purpose of that code and think it should be enforced IF both sides are playing by the rules. Our current government is in violation of so many laws. I am not condoning, but I get why there is an increase in people who are advocating violence or the breaking of laws in protest of our government.

I've seen a couple of your previous posts in regards to OLAASM & blackbloc. I think whether or not they are undercover infiltrators to cause rifts in OWS is a good question & possibility, but I also think those fringe type groups are to be expected in a country with such high government corruption. I don't think right now is the right time for it, but when the time comes I'm sure there are many who would do anything it takes to ensure the freedom and well being of our communites & families.

Thanks for the link to your blog on CA law. I'm attempting to do some research on constitutional law. I'm surprised there aren't more knowledgeable people out there on the subject that are wanting to work with OWS & like-minded individuals. I've disagreed with you in the past but I do appreciate the info & time you've put into this.

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