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Tonight at the general assembly the pitched debate was on. It was all about whether or not to comply with the non-negotiable DEMAND by Captain Sherman of the LAPD that the donation of organic garden boxes should be removed, forthwith.
What you say? What are you talking about, Gardening Boxes? What has THAT got to do with Wall Street? Not much as far as I can see, but way too many of the folks at the GA tonight saw it far differently. Many expressed their feelings that THIS should be the line in the sand where the battle starts. Too many of the Occupiers seem to be itching for a fight. Maybe it is because everywhere around the country that IS what the occupations have gotten, a fight, complete with riot cops, tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullets. And so far NONE of that has been seen in LA, thank God.
Be careful what you wish for Occupiers, THAT is this reporters advice to the crowd. You MAY think it is NOBLE, or it is inevitable or just plain part of the process to be beaten, gassed and arrested. I do not see it that way. I see that the LA Occupation has had more leeway and understanding from the LA city officials than any other occupiers anywhere else in the nation from the get go. I believe the Occupiers should embrace and be thankful for that leeway and insight from the LA powers that be. Work-With-It, DO NOT throw it all away over some organic garden boxes intended to GROW THEIR OWN FOOD.
What the majority of the Occupiers do not grasp is that they are there for ONE PURPOSE and one purpose only. That purpose is to Peaceably Assemble and to petition the government with redress of their grievances. That’s IT folks. You are NOT there to start a people’s university. You are not there to feed and cloth the homeless who have flocked to the lawns to take whatever advantage and raise whatever hell they can get away with. You are not there to drum, dance, and party far into the night, disturbing the PEACE of the neighborhood. You ARE there to Peaceably Assemble to petition the government with a redress of YOUR grievances. That IS the one reason you are there and that one reason allows you the PROTECTION of the First Amendment to remain in Occupation of the City Hall lawns. Once you move outside that Peaceful Assembly process THEN the LA City officials and LAPD can and will make the case in Federal court that YOU ALL were no longer Peacefully Assembled, to petition the government with your grievances. That's the Ball-Game, you've screw it up and open the door for tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullets. THAT is the cold hard FACT that Occupy LA better embrace fast or it is going to get real messy. AND all the hard work and sacrifice the TRUE, down-for-the-cause Occupiers have invested with suffer the unnecessary set back of Legal Eviction from the lawns. And what a shame that will be. Because, dear Occupiers, ultimately you are there on the lawns of LA City Hall because of this and this alone:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
So Do the WORK, Get It Right, DUMP the garden, turn down the PA at 9 PM behave like responsible CITIZENS, peacefully assembling to petition the government with a list of your grievances. Like the song says: Be Cool Or Be Cast Out. Don’t Blow It! Do you REALLY want to go back to Square One and begin all over again?
To tovangar2 & PC sincere "All due respect"
Submitted by alhs06 on
partial quote of the day,
Now I'm no expert or Apologist on behalf of the homeless, less the experience with my younger brother, who I love dearly, or my experience working around them through the mid 80's & to the end of the 90's in the Civic Center area of Santa Ana, or the ones incarcerated in Chino CYA, or treated @ King Drew Medical Center or living around the Mexicali-El Centro-Brawley "Imperial Valley Housing Authority" unit's or more recently the service road under Grand Ave. between 2nd & Hope Pl. just past 4th street in L.A., (they make a lot of films down there & above on Grand, I've stood with the street people lots of times catching glimpses, or stuck in traffic waiting.)
Try thinking of these people as the Aztec's & we're the Spanish, or the Navajo & we're the settler's. Does our cause give us the right of eviction or relocation of the homeless. They have been here a lot longer than us, & while they can't get postal service to their couple of squares of sidewalk, it still is Their Familiar area they call home. Now throw in opportunity born from need not greed, to get free meals & fresh water on a regular basis. Would you walk away from that if you were desperate?
Now the big question, never mind that most of these people are homeless through addiction & use. Ask yourself why, & if you partake, then ask yourself why them & not me, followed by "YET". But that would never happen to you, metaphorically speaking, as it only happens to other people, (lol, I used that line twice today). Know where a lot of these "Bum's" come from? Upper Middle to Lower Middle income families, the ones who could afford their choice of drug from Miller to Meth & everything in between, but about 99% of them couldn't afford the "Betty Ford Clinic" or similar.
Here's a taste of where we/they are dollar & success wise: ~(excerpt from newsytype.com "Hard Partying Celebs" by Sam Hoober June 6, 2011) the story link http://www.newsytype.com/7213-high-cost-of-rehab/
Just my opinion anyway.
Homelessness is not at issue
Submitted by tovangar2 on
Dear Ahs06,
I'll repost a reply I left for someone else over on my
OLA NEIGHBOR CLAIMS CITY COUNCIL SAYS OLA "THREATENS VIOLENCE"
thread:
"There are homeless people who are incredibly valuable to Occupy LA and committed to the Movement. Some have been organizers from the beginning and others became contributors later on.
The problem lies with non-participants, whoever they are, homeless or not, disruptive or not. The Occupation's legal basis for being at City Hall is the right to Free Speech and Peaceable Assembly to Petition the Government for Redress of Grievances. Any who are not participating in that activity have no right to camp there and may well cause Occupy LA to be the baby that gets thrown out with the bath water."
"Crazy street people" was an ill-advised term. I need to listen to my own advice and watch my mouth. I apologize, especially since I've been called out twice now on the same subject. I did not mean to imply that all non-participating people were homeless or that highly-valued participating Occupiers never are, because that certainly is not the case. For all I know, the non-participants are the children of 1%'ers in town from gated enclaves, playing at being crazy street people as an exercise in slumming, just to raise some hell cuz they weren't raised right.
As for "But that would never happen to you, metaphorically speaking, as it only happens to other people", I've been on the brink of destitution for far too long. I am totally disabled, wheelchair-bound (thx to a couple of LAPD officers), dependent on others for help w/ daily tasks and living on a total of $860 per month in Social Security & SSI. I've had to ask the landlord to be patient again this month cuz I still don't have the rent. If I didn't sleep on the sofa to make room for a paying lodger, I would be homeless or in one of those god-awful abusive/neglectful "homes" the county pays private contractors way too much for.
Hmmm, that sounded kinda pathetic, but I've got no complaints, except about the activities of the 1%'ers and the politicians in collusion w/ them. More than anything I really want Occupy LA & the Movement to be successful. When we've got a decent government sorted we'll be able to look after everyone, but that means staying on target now, without distractions that we really can't meaningfully impact anyway and that may cause us to self-distruct, or "implode" as Rancho Larry so eloquently & colorfully put it.
tovangar2 well put & understand
Submitted by alhs06 on
Agreed with you, I'll just make a comment we all may have overlooked, then I'll get back to fighting the good fight.
When we started this occupation, did we have any forethought about the handful of dilemmas or situation's we would inevitably face, such as the homeless & problematic people inherit problem's? If we don't handle the ongoing problem delicately, it could be turned against us.
That is a headline waiting to happen if we are not careful, that is a concern to me as much as their well-being.
Okay I'm done now. ONWARD & FORWARD!
Fools Rush In
Submitted by tovangar2 on
Yep, that's us.
But please, I hope there's no pummeling & abusing. That really would be counter-productive.
OWS (& the other Occupys) have the same problems. Maybe time for a national solution?:
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/occupy-wall-street-central-a-rift-gro...
http://xo99percent.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/policing-itself/
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-occupy-wall-street-has-become-2010-11
Don't miss this excellent blog post about Occupy LA
http://www.occupylosangeles.org/?q=node/1551
Thank you for your kind reply.
garden
Submitted by bonnie on
isn't there a garden project being started off site? Operation Garden of Eden? Why not move the boxes to that location?
Confused
Submitted by Farmgirl on
So the boxes are a sustainable food action but the backdrop is the farmers who were displaced loading their produce in and undoubtedly out at the end of day across Main Street? If the majority of OLA wanted to move out of the evacuation lanes so the farmers wouldn't be hurt then why place semi permanent planter boxes at the base of the South Stairs in the middle of the main evacuation route for the building? I wonder if there are those who really are just trying to force the police to arrest protesters and (hopefully?) inciting a riot. why not put them on the West side of the building if another spot if you disagree with the Ag law? Certainly, you don't have to block a fire exit.
I find all of the logic confusing and wish that the focus of actions remained on the banks, corrupt government and inequity.
Don't feel bad for being confused...
Submitted by PC on
The reason you find this logic confusing is because there is no logic to it.
For one thing, this is *not* a sustainable food action. Urban food gardening is sustainable when it allows people to take otherwise wasted space and resources and use them to supplement (not replace--it's not capable of that) their diets with healthy vegetables. A great example would be a working class family living in a 900 square foot house on a 2500 square foot lot, in a neighborhood without access to fresh organic produce. By tearing up the front lawn that is just sitting there sucking up water and replacing it with planter boxes, they can have a steady supply of fresh vegetables to add to their diet without spending a lot of money.
We are not a family of five living permanently on a 2500 square foot lot. We are a group of several hundred people packed densely into a couple of cramped lawns in the middle of a city. The food produced by a box garden at City Hall would not make even a minuscule dent in the Occupation's food needs. Gardening at City Hall would not reclaim wasted space; it would create wasted space. That's true whether the damned things are placed on the steps or on the lawn.
Gardening at the Occupation is not only not worth fighting for, it is not worth doing.
SERIOUSLY
Submitted by ctizzie on
70 fucking posts about garden boxes? Seriously?!?!?! (I realize I'm adding to this idiocy - but I do so only in the gob-smacked spirit of utter disillusionment...) LA doesn't get shit done because we spend all day talking about the most utterly inane bullshit in the history of bullshit. Put those fucking things in one of the multi-chambered, tent-McMansions we have the luxury of "occupying" already and STFU. Please?
If I hear one more goddamn word about garden boxes - one way or the fucking other, because frankly, if you are Pro-Garden or Anti-Garden is fucking irrelevant at this point, seeing as so many of you wasted an entire day talking about this idiocy - I'm going to personally build barricades around my tent with those stupid, wood assemblages to use as a defensive fortification behind which I will lob my organic, free-range, hand-fed turnips at you all. BEET that!
In stupefied solidarity,
Craig
Thx Craig...
Submitted by tovangar2 on
...you gave me my much needed laugh of the day. I laughed till I cried & my nose ran. You are a tonic.
Arguing about...
Submitted by ultrarad on
Yeah, the left spends most of its time arguing that way. Has more or less since before there was air. Welcome to movement politics. :\ Might accomplish more if it ever gets a clue. Not sure about betting high on that.
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Radical also means staying critical and not drinking anyone's kool-aid.
Pine boxes
Submitted by emwoccupyla on
to use as coffins for the movement is what they represent to me... This Movement is about fixing wall street, banks and getting big money out of politics not about growing a few plants at OLA. BTW, "Bigmoney" if you want to run for office i would support you.
its not about garden plants
Submitted by bonnie on
the city does not want you there. this is a symbolic gesture and it should have been dealt with in kind. you have not taken down your tents and those are not allowed. why would you refuse your gifted PORTABLE garden boxes? the fact that's it's even being argued about is stupid enough for me to wonder why you are all there to begin with...
LA Times article today focuses on 2 violent incidents at OLA Fri
Submitted by Lee on
Also, that during the rain, a couple Starbucks unbrellas were stolen, and ended up, repainted, at O.LA.
In terms of the violence, people (homeless or homed) should receive no second chance to return to O.LA. However, if it were up to me, I would load them up with some food and a rain poncho and sincerely wish them good luck, so that they don't return for revenge. (Having been the victim of violence a couple times, I really don't want a violent person harboring obsessive anger toward me). Both of the violent assaults were by women, btw. It's still true that most violent acts are committed by men, but still we should resist the stereotype! As far as the umbrellas, I feel sympathy for the people but we can't have the Occupy movement stigmatized in that way--however, since it's a nonviolent action, I would give them a second chance.
Leone
Do you have the link?....
Submitted by tovangar2 on
...I couldn't find the article you referenced.
Edit: Found it http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-1105-occupy-crime-20111105,0,776...
As a person who helped with the garden
Submitted by Louise Belcher on
boxes on the day they were made, I just want to say that if I had known there was any issue with them possibly not being allowed on the lawn during the protest, I would not have bothered.
It is a nice gesture and symbol, but not even a side issue. And if it distracts from the core message of removing the fraud and bribery going on in D.C. and Wall Street...leave it.
I may at some point have to choose to go against an order from police in order stand up for my values, but this is not it. And I am saddened that discussing it has wasted time that could have been better spent.
OLA already has enough people pushing their own pet projects to add more.
Raising a beaten horse...
Submitted by tdahlhoff on
I know everyone got their undies in a bunch over this garden issue, but I have been following the story and have some opinions on it...
First off, for those vehemently opposed to the garden because of its "irrelevance" to the movement, please take a step back and really think about your position. We can not be so narrow minded about what it is that needs to change in our society. If this is a movement about socio-economic inequality, we can not disregard the major role played by our current agriculture system in this dilemma. Wallstreet/ Banks own our food systems, just as they own our homes, and have destroyed communities all over the country. Do we not agree that wall street and all associated corporations hold overwhelming control over our daily lives? If we agree on this than we should not be so hasty to call certain sub-movements within Occupy as irrelevant. Many many facets of our lives are affected by wall street greed.
We should not discredit those who are attempting to bring light to the subject of Agriculture. It IS relevant, but by know means do I think it is the only relevant subject, likewise no one else should think that their particular cause within the movement is the only one with relevance. This is an extremely complex issue we are facing, and whether we like it or not it is going to take extremely complex solutions.
http://www.iatp.org/blog/201109/what-does-the-occupation-of-wall-street-...
Also, can we please stop talking about the community garden's ability or inability to feed the occupiers? It was never meant for that purpose. It was meant to be symbolic, and if the police would not have butted in, I think it was a symbol we could have all agreed on (just as no one seemed to complain when a GIANT mural was painted on the fountain box as a SYMBOL of the movement. If the police had threated to kick butts over the painting, would we have treated it the same as the gardens?)
Is not one of the goals of this movement to create a self-sufficient society that is in OUR control instead of a handfull of corporations? Is not the ability to feed ourselves without the intervention of Wall Street a necessary piece of that movement?
All the drama aside, I think the gardens could have stood as a great symbol of the movement. Not the only symbol, but still a relevant and powerful one.
Tory Dahlhoff
Lets beat that horse some more ;)
Submitted by Mahayana on
"Is not one of the goals of this movement to create a self-sufficient society that is in OUR control instead of a handfull of corporations?"
Yes Tory, but the plan is NOT to create a self sufficient society in FRONT of city hall.
Here is the order of things:
Until we have the support of the people, we have to play by the rules. We will never get the support of the people if we have this division amongst ourselves. The drug use and partying will only tarnish the Occupy image more because the media is focusing only on this type of negative behavior.
The planters are not a powerful enough symbol worth jeopardizing the entire LA movement over. Plus, nothing is stopping anyone from being self-sufficient in their own homes & communities. Why don't the pro-planter people put the garden in their homes and trade amongst each other? If they're so hell bent on it, why dont they and their portable gardens occupy some park somewhere so they can be symbolic without threatening the whole movement?
Occupy has a GOAL and a lot of other miscellaneous issues (Such as the right to a self sufficient society, legalization of marijuana, healthcare, etc..) fall under the umbrella of THAT goal. For the time being, effort & energy needs to be put towards that one goal and anything else is only a hindrance to it.
p.s. does anyone know where I can buy wooden boxes like the ones they are using? I have motherfuckin gophers in my backyard that are making it impossible for me to plant anything!!!
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves - in their separate, and individual capacities. -Abe
This is one of the most
Submitted by tdahlhoff on
This is one of the most coherent statements about the issue I have heard yet. I truly appreciate your response. It is a great plan of action, one I think should be communicated throughout the occupation and throughout the media covering the movement...but as you pointed out they are more interested in shining a spotlight on the negative.
All and all, I really am just sad it became so dramatic. Symbols and agendas and whatever aside, it just would have been nice to see some innocent planter boxes around as maybe a small beautification/maintenance effort. Maybe if the boxes had been presented differently to the LAPD as an effort to be conscious of the impact of the occupation on the park grounds. Obviously, it is too late for that...and that is OK, because the occupation continues and that is what is important.
Anyways...all this aside, I am really happy to see so much passion and conversation and thought going into this movement. It's incredibly inspiring.
Thanks for beating that horse... Fly the Flag! Send a message...
Submitted by Rancho Larry on
.... Your comment is spot on. FOCUS people.
I still think we need to flood the camp with American Flags.
I believe we need to show the American People we are Americans that think and care. I believe the optimum message to send is:
We Love America and want to fix the broken government.
Even if the American flags do not stop the cops in a confrontation, think of how it will look on TV to the public. WE need to FRAME the issue and take control of the conversation. The Government IS broken and needs fixing. THAT is something that most Americans should agree with, don't you think?
We ALL Love America… We want the broken government fixed…..
Rancho Larry
No, as a matter of fact, we
Submitted by PC on
No, as a matter of fact, we cannot and will not stop discussing the ability of the gard en to feed the Occupation. It's the inability of the garden to feed even a tiny fraction of the hungry Occupiers that makes it a particularly weak symbol, and that bears directly upon the question of whether the time, effort, space, and hazard of maintaining it are well spent--bearing in mind that those last two costs are imposed upon ALL Occupiers.
If you don't want to address an issue, nobody here will ever force you to do so. But kindly don't tell the rest of us what we can and can't discuss. Thanks!
Garden boxes? stand as a great symbol of the movement? What?
Submitted by alhs06 on
You know what ...Only in Los Angeles could a comment like that actually be considered as seriouse & not a joke.
That is all I will say about garden boxes feeding the few concern's outside the doors of city hall. Tap me on the shoulder when we have enough boxes to feed the concern's inside the doors of our country.
Gardens are nice, but they
Submitted by nobody on
Gardens are nice, but they are kind of like this middle class fad for the past decade or so. it's become real trendy.
Food = Freedom--
Submitted by occupyfood on
The whole point of the occupy movement begins with the freedom to grow food--to be self-reliant without worrying about the most basic parts of our lives being controlled by centralized powers. Maybe we must agree in the moment to so-called "Policies" put in place which force us to dump perfectly good plants on public land--BUT NEVER FORGET basic Freedom is about the ability to grow your own food and feed yourself.
Freedom to grow your own food on your own land is what this country was founded on. Nations have always fallen when the people allow government to steal their local food. Right now only a few CENTRALIZED corporate factory farms stock grocery stores with their chemically processed, genetically modified food. But you won't even get that when the weather is bad and transporation is down. And how will you get that food in an emergency?
What kind of government would try to stop local people from sustaining themselves by growing their own food? Is that American? Are we owned by the government who is supposed to serve us or is the government owned by the corporations who raise shitty food? Have you tasted the food in most grocery stores? Wake up.
Real food promotes health and it is abundant when grown with care. Real food does not require toxic chemicals and genetic modifications to be abundant. Real food does not require the spraying of experimental toxic chemicals from the sky, which lands on people and urban environments.
Food is not something police should be grabbing from your hands. Thomas Jefferson established the right to grow our own food without government intervention--but corporations are twisting his words and taking that right away. Wake up and realize what you are Occupying--the right to exist and to thrive within the land you should be free to live in.
What we have...
Submitted by slearwig on
...is a society where all of our basic native needs, land, food, water, shelter, have been converted to commodities sold for what the market will yield at our obligated expense and requisite subordination, without any such agreement by us to comply from the start.
Our schools never taught us how to avoid food poisoning EDIT: By sight and smell when encountered in the real world, let alone how to do things for ourselves. The folk arts of metal and wood which sustained the commoners of the past have been neatly forgotten. Most of us have been taught to be general laborers.
Isn't it strange that a government whose politicians constantly voice concern over "big government" do nothing about the failure of our education system to teach us how to be self-reliant and how to take care, that is, unless there is a power angle involved?
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