So we've had a few visitors from OWS join us in the last few weeks, and I was lucky enough to hang out with one of them, Kris from Harlem. It was pretty interesting hearing what he had to say about Occupy LA. You're friendly, you have a great community, your struggles to improve the General Assembly and figure out 'the process' of consensus and participatory democracy directly mirror a similar stage OWS went through... But You Angelenos are goddam fucking whiny.
I've mentioned in previous blogs my belief that our lack of direct confrontation with police and authorities has led to a certain sense of complacency amongst some quarters. Our community often lacks - well, community, because of a few people who demonstrate little interest in learning, protesting or practising what the Occupy Movement is about.
The Farmers' Market tent-moving fiasco is evidence of this. Occupiers were asked to move their tents to accommodate the Farmers Market which sets up on Thursdays from 4am until 2pm. Most people complied - the Farmers are part of us. It's hardly like we're helping out Chase fucking Bank, is it? But several people refused to move their tents on the grounds that "they didn't want to accommodate City Hall". Conveniently overlooking the very real threat that the Farmers would lose their license, as a direct result of this action. This alone makes clear that there exists, in Tent City, a small but severe epidemic of individuals who interpret this movement as a license to Do What The Fuck You Want.
I see it everywhere, DWTFYW. The party contingent, schlepping around tents, stoned out of their minds, spilling two-buck chuck over people working 24 hour shifts. Some bum from Skid Row will wander in, lay down, and spend the next half hour poking around for a vein. The scent of weed lingers in the air, and as soon as you mention that this kind of image plays exactly into the stereotype that the right wing media are pushing to perpetuate, some screaming biddy will start waiving her medical marijuana card around, while some kid who doesn't have one will be double dipping with weed and shrooms, because she's smoking, so it's OK, yeah?
No it's not fucking OK. This party atmosphere is not fucking OK. We're here to demonstrate that direct democracy and collective decision making can work for us better than a corrupt and unjust capitalist system which thrives on promoting the 1% at our expense.
They do not have tents in New York - they sleep on the sidewalk. OWS operates a zero-tolerance policy concerning drugs and alcohol, because it's illegal to drink in the streets in New York, as it is here. It's illegal to spark up a joint, as it is here. If you do so in New York, you will get beaten, arrested, and thrown in jail. Breaking the law deliberately does not necessarily equate to civil disobedience. It does, however, equate to stupidity. Smoking a goddamn joint in public, drinking in public - is not civil disobedience. It's someone who doesn't give a fuck, showing they don't give a fuck. Unless you have a medical marijuana card, in which case, as a responsible medical patient, you should be smoking your marijuana discreetly and privately, not wafting around, proclaiming it's essential for your fucking sciatica, on the goddamn sidewalk in front of kids, the public, the police, and your occupying neighbors.
This is not about policing people - though New York's security team does, by all accounts, simply confiscate alcohol or drugs from any occupier who has drugs or alcohol within the movement. It's certainly not about throwing our hands up in their air and saying, "This won't work. People won't give up smoking weed". This is about reaching an acceptable consensus which allows Occupiers to feel safe, which does not invite the DEA into our camp, which doesn't give Police an excuse to bust us, which does not soil our image in the media. This is about consensus and collective decision making to find a solution that will protect our community and our movement, as well as the individuals' right to take medication when prescribed, so that we can continue to grow and learn.
Hell, we all love booze and drugs. I love 'em so much I spent two years in AA. I love 'em so much I left AA again. But I will categorically not drink, smoke nor do anything else within Tent City, because it is a place to work, it is a place to learn, it is a place to be the very best person you can be - and then get arrested because you're waving a placard outside Bank of America fighting for the rights of the 99%, and against corporate greed.
I'd hate to be the asshole tripping my tits off, waving my Crappy Merlot around, joint in hand, who gets Occupy LA closed down. All the other Occupiers across the world are proudly and peacefully being arrested for protesting passionately about their beliefs, against horrendous inequality and injustice. They're holding General Assemblies talking about the way forward, discussing Healthcare, Social Policy, World Economics...
Here, we spend General Assemblies arguing about why people can't agree that Tent City should be a sober zone: because certain individuals want to party, and other individuals can't smoke a joint in their tent or offsite. Imagine if some Twat in LA got arrested because they thought this movement meant you could Do What The Fuck You Want, and screw the consequences.
We have a tiny, small minority of these people living in Tent City. I suspect if the weather sucked, we had no food, and the police were beating our asses every day, they might not find Tent City and the movement so appealing. But because of our location, the geographic diversity and lack of center of LA, because of the peculiar problems created by a high rate of homelessness and unemployment, side-by-side with fabulous wealth, because this is combined with deep racial and ethnic schisms, all thrown together into a state with spectacular weather and natural abundance which is ignored in favor of imported crap, because we're five blocks from Skid Row, and we don't throw the homeless on the street like the state does, because of all this: we have some crazy ass, unique problems to deal with.
No one within Occupy LA is trying to take away anyone's rights. If you live in Tent City, you voluntarily joined a peaceful movement of Civil Disobedience which aims to address corporatocracy and injustice in the world. You volunteered to help construct, and participate in, a mass experiment in participatory democracy and consensus decision making, in order to see if that offers a viable alternative to the fucked up system which has taken our savings, our jobs, our cars, our homes, our healthcare, our education and our rights as human beings away from us.
In the light of that, the fact that you might jeopardise a farmers' livelihood because you didn't want to move your fucking tent, and you might jeopardise the whole beautiful movement, simply because you want to party, or you might jeopardise the movement, because you refuse to smoke a joint privately in your tent or discreetly offsite - that just doesn't fly. It isn't what Occupy LA should be about. It definitely is not what Wall Street is about.
There is more at stake than Doing Whatever The Fuck You Want. This is about our futures, and those of our children.
We have achieved so much in just three short weeks. We're growing every day. We're a safe haven in America, as pretty much the only large occupation which doesn't suffer from police brutality and authoritarian resistance. We have a strong, committed core community of people who are creative, intelligent, argumentative, passionate, fiery, hard working and simply brilliant. We have beautiful weather, even in winter, which means camping is easy for us. We can be a safe, secure haven for our brothers and sisters who don't have it so easy. We're getting there - we're so damn close.
Just please, next time you see a DWTFYW lurking around at play, tell them this movement is not about Doing Whatever The Fuck You Want. That self-interested behavior by the minority which impacts negatively upon the majority exactly replicates the behavior of those against whom we're protesting, we're marching, and we're occupying. We are better than them. This is our chance to prove it. The very fact we can have an honest, open, transparent discussion about this is evidence of that. We have nothing to hide, even our problems. We don't need to hide our problems. Because we will solve them peacefully, through consensus.
I love you, Occupy LA. I love you, Wall Street. I love you, Occupiers across the world. The People United, will Never Be Divided. Let's keep reminding ourselves of this as we deal with these issues in a way which is fairer, more honest, more humane, and more transparent than the existing fucked up system.
(PS I know the chant is "defeated" not "divided" - but I think, when our solidarity is being threatened from within, divided is more appropriate)
36 Comments
yes!
Submitted by LovingFighter on
The DWTFYW movement is really cramping the Occupy LA movement's style. They are parasites!
Good post.
Submitted by Fex on
Articulated quite well, I concur.
"Word following word- I wrought words. Deed following deed, I wrought deeds." - The Havamal
You are 100% accurate
Submitted by Sue Basko on
Before Occupy LA began, I researched the law and wrote a blog post on the laws that apply in City Hall Park. If you want to keep the City Hall Park space and want to keep Occupy LA going, I suggest you kick out anyone violating the laws. And also -- it is totally illegal to smoke marijuana there, card or no card. It is illegal and a fire hazard and a danger to all.
I wrote the pertinent laws in this easy-to-understand blog post, which has been read by thousands of people: http://suebasko.blogspot.com/2011/09/los-angeles-protests-legal-info.html
I also prepared this full blog on protest topics, many for Los Angeles specifically. The LAPD manning @OccupyLAPD has recommended that everyone at Occupy LA read my blog for good information on the law of protesting: http://occupypeace.blogspot.com
-- Sue
Sue Basko, Lawyer
OCCUPY PEACE - Legal Info on How to Hold a Peaceful Protest or Occupation
Well Said
Submitted by Kimma on
You nailed it. Honestly, concisely & accurately.
First off, I am more of an outsider. I come to Occupy Los Angeles at least once a week and participate in marches and general assemblies. Due to my disability I am unable to camp out with you. Even though I want to more than anything. However, being an outsider and watching this incredible movement unfold, I can see how non occupiers might view this movement . This movement could be easily misunderstood and not taken seriously because of a few people who can't get beyond their own self serving interests. This isn't Burning Man or Lightning In A Bottle. But unfortunately, some people think it is.
Being a Prop 215 patient, I totally support the use of medicinal marijuana. However, at the Occupy Los Angeles site, people who need to medicate, out of respect to the rest of the group, should do so privately and discreetly. They might consider purchasing tinctures. edibles or cannabis capsules from their dispensary as part of their commitment to making this occupation run smoothly and garner the respect and credibility it deserves. Lighting up a joint on the lawn in broad daylight is not necessary. They need to take that action to Venice Beach.
Right now, the Occupy Orange County group is struggling with "party people" as well. My friend Kyla just sent the following email to them which she said I could share here:
"I'd love to support your cause and I live in OC so I should. But I devote my energies to the Occupy Los Angeles and Occupy Long Beach groups.
There are people in your organization that think this is some kind of festival or party. And they also are spouting the usual OC shallow bullcrap. I've read tweets from some of your occupiers that say things like "no fat chicks" and
"let's party". Really?
This isn't a weekend at Coachella or a night at The Shark Club. This is serious business. We are fighting for working people, students, the poor and our economy. We are fighting for America. Why on earth would a Fat Chick not be welcome in this struggle? What kind of shallow, elitist, ignorant message is that? As long as your people think its okay to convey these kinds of messages, you aren't going to be taken nearly as seriously as you should. This is sad. Because I can tell by what I've read that many of you in this occupy movement are committed and authentic. The mainstream media, believe it or not, IS watching and can't wait to pounce if they see nothing but a party going on. The good news is that eventually the cold hard reality of true activism will weed out the "party" people . They'll just get tired and hungry and cold. They'll go home, change clothes and head out to a bar. Hopefully before they tarnish your endeavor. In the meantime you might at least ask them out of respect to the movement to keep their social media comments related to Occupy OC on point and not about parties or chicks or hooking up.And you might take a look at Occupy Los Angeles website. While they do have their own group struggles, nobody resorts to name calling of that immature and hurtful nature. They are inclusive and respectful and fighting the good fight. They have no problem at all with Fat Chicks."
So, Occupy Los Angeles, look on the bright side, at least you aren't dealing with that.
Kim
"Excess ain't rebellion"
Proud OLA Fat Chick!
Submitted by ArsenicAlyss on
While I'm all for SoCal solidarity, let's not be Orange County, okay?
Very well said, all of you.
I will find a way or make one. DIY or die. Occupy reality.
Total Support
Submitted by rwillhite on
I totally agree with you. It has been my experience that the party contingent, at least some of them, don't even attend the GA. The whole point of a movement is to effect change through a body larger than yourself. If you make you weaknesses more important thatn the group strength, then you will negate whatever progress we might make together.
Rob - what you believe is what you manifest
I Concur.
Submitted by prl_h on
After watching 3 hrs of the GA last night, of which a good amount was about the issue of smoking and drinking in public, I now can truly appreciate the point of how one behaves in public on behalf of the occupation. I personally am a big fan of both smoking and drinking but I do believe that it would be advantageous to the movement that everyone behave in a lucid, conscious and ready-to-respond/engage/act mode, especially if you are camping out at City Hall. Multiple camera crews are down there filming all the time and who knows what footage will make it where. The world IS watching, and it's not entirely populated by people who are sympathetic or agree with the occupiers.
Actions speak louder than
Submitted by Farmgirl on
Actions speak louder than words. I keep hearing that the "problems" are due to a small fringe element, but from first-hand experience I can say honestly that it is much more prevalent than that. I am personally very disappointed. I hope that the other Occupy protests are more authentic and practice what they preach. Think globally, act locally.
1~ I've mentioned in previous
Submitted by alhs06 on
Gotcha!
I thought it was known as The Left Wing Media? Hmmm ...different side of the tracks maybe. Okay, I'm still "All in"
Personally I like our capitalist system, I just don't like the greed & corruption perpetrated by the 1% that currently dominates it. Eg: The Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act (GLB), also known as the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999,
I thought you were encouraging us to break the law in quote 1~, I bought into your argument in other threads regarding overpasses & banner's, ignoring the legality issues & all. Wait ...I get it, we need to choose by committee or such, the laws we should be breaking, gotcha again.
WTF!? We got Skid Row Bum's, in Downtown L.A., in OUR PARK, OUR HOME. Didn't all those mentally unstable drug doing Bastards & Bitches get their Eviction Notices before we took over their homes. The nerve of those assholes, why can't that portion of our society act like the disposable populous that we labeled them as & Occupy Los Angeles some place else? Maybe our contempt for them does give us something in common with the 1%, there's no value and/or profit in Bums!
Well I ran out of time for now, but an interesting blog Ruth. The use of the word FUCK got my 13 year old grand sons attention that was brilliant, just don't smoke weed or drink alcohol in front of them, gotcha.
BRILLIANT, that makes...
Submitted by helper on
two of us with critical thinking skills... why are the rest applauding her? LA is an intellectual wasteland.
#5 Got me, too!
Submitted by prayn4peace on
This time I agreed with most of Ruth's post, that this isn't about partying and we're pushing the limit and being incredibly disrespectful of the fact that City Hall is supporting us, by drinking and smoking on the lawn. We DO have a message and it's a very important one. Personally, I don't like every other word in Ruth's posts being "Fuck". To me it doesn't sound cool or add emphasis - it's simply distracting and brings whatever follows in the post less credibility than it might have had without resorting to profanity. But that's just me.
But, I was totally disgusted when Ruth mentioned a "bum from Skid Row" wandering into the park. I'm sorry, Ruth, but you are totally out of touch with reality and the homeless situation in this here City of Angels. Have you been down to "Skid Row"? The homeless are people, just like you and me, people who've lost their jobs, who have passions and interests and loves and lives. They are part of the 99%, a BIG part that we should be representing, supporting, and welcoming. Their very existence in this wealthiest of nations is partly why we're HERE occupying City Hall!
To dismiss another human being as a "Skid Row bum", simply because he or she has suffered homelessness as a result of the actions of our government, our corporations, our banking system, and the 1%, is to dismiss the basic premise of the occupy movement.
Read a little
Submitted by LovingFighter on
Yeah alhs06, you're one to talk about sensitivity towards the homeless. You support capitalism! Didn't you know.......capitalism REQUIRES poverty?????? Oh, I get it. You don't like it when it's controlled by the 1%. I guess you liked it better when it was like 10% a loooooong time ago? I could see how that could give you a sense of breaking through the barrier and joining them on the income scale. Gotcha!
Where's The Love LovingFighter? where's the love ...
Submitted by alhs06 on
LF quote,
I support Capitalism ...very astute perception of me Babe, you must be a member of the "Sherlock Holmes School of The Obvious". I think you will find that the Majority of the people on this site are for retaining our Democracy, that could not be called a Democracy without the inclusion of Capitalism, which BTW is not a bad word. What is BAD about Capitalism is when it is removed from the rest of Society, allowing only a few, about 1% in this country, To hijack it's definition & turn it into something as TERRIBLE as SOCIALISM or COMMUNISM. Which in my point of viewe is A greater Horror and CORRUPT ACTION AGAINST THE 99%.
Capitalism made this country great, behind the people. UNCHECKED or CORRUPT ACT'S by the 1%, preventing the rest of us to partake in "THE AMERICAN DREAM" through a fair market & the opportunity to borrow money our own money, The 99%, to start a business. Where by allowing us to hire our family, friends, neighbors & College Grads through the avenue's provided by a FREE SOCIETY and our CAPITALISTIC NATURE.
LovingFighter, tell me, what country or society is currently without a level of poverty? Or are you just spitting words on a screen to sound like you have a valid criticism of capitalism & propping a Polished Review of yourself & whatever the Hell it is you promote.
Read: This call to action, found here, http://occupywallst.org/
All I'm saying PEOPLE is don't lose site of OUR FOUNDER'S Original CALL TO ARM'S.
More love coming your way, buddy (hug) : )
Submitted by LovingFighter on
My love can be seen in my willingness to engage with you. I don't need to do this. But perhaps I'm the fool here, for maybe you and people like you are just being nuts on purpose. But I like to err on the side of caution. Maybe this is my fault. And hey, you don't get to decide how my love is expressed. So don't question my love, buddy!
I really like how you misunderstand what I mean. When I say "you support capitalism!" I did not mean for it to be a profound observation, hence, no need to call me a Sherlock Holmes, for I did not pretend to figure you out. You had said so yourself in an earlier comment, so I was just emphasizing your own position. My point was actually made in the second part of that part that you quote. You know, that part that you quoted for some strange reason, since you didn't even address it ANYWHERE in your reply. How funny! So what I meant with "you support capitalism!" can only be understood once you understand the entire two sentences as a whole. Needless to say, you didn't. :(
So allow me to explain my comment again. My point is that capitalism requires poverty, for there can't be rich if there are no poor. And you can't have everyone being "middle class" because if everyone is in the middle then there's no one above or below them, hence, there are no class differences. But this is not possible under capitalism, as you probably already know. My point is just this: as long as you champion capitalism you have no moral right to criticize someone else's insensitivity for the homeless, because you are insensitive to them as well. That was my point, plain and simple.
And next time you won't just get a hug, you'll also get a kiss. ;)
Why does capitalism require poverty?
Submitted by Mahayana on
"capitalism requires poverty, for there can't be rich if there are no poor. And you can't have everyone being "middle class" because if everyone is in the middle then there's no one above or below them, hence, there are no class differences."
Are you suggesting that a brain surgeon should make the same income as a 30 yr old man that works the bare minimum to pay rent so he can play Call of Duty and get drunk all the time with his friends? (i'm not implying the 2nd one is bad, I enjoy doing both)
I'm not sure how capitalism requires poverty as you suggest. Sure, you will have those that make more or less money, but that doesn't necessarily require that there will be those in poverty.
I think the only thing that creates poverty are the monopolistic entities and corporations that dominate the market. Small businesses are becoming extinct because they can't compete with Wal-mart or Amazon.com. The American people continue to buy from the very corporations which enslave them. For what? So they can save a few bucks at the expense of our economy and our freedom? If we are not willing to change our daily habits, how are we expecting any change in our nation?
There is an enemy but I don't think it's capitalism.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves - in their separate, and individual capacities. -Abe
on structural unemployment and monopoly
Submitted by LovingFighter on
On Unemployment: There has never been a time when capitalism had 0% unemployment. The reason being that if no one was unemployed, the workers would have businesses in a choke-hold and it would be easy for them to get higher wages, good health care, and less hours (all of which we should support!). The reason why capitalism needs poverty is because if the workers threaten to strike, they can be replaced by those without jobs. Why else do you think workers don't unionize???
On Monopoly: The logic of the capitalist system is to maximize profit, is it not? Ok, if you go the extra step in the process, what follows is that different companies compete with each other to get the maximum rate of return. This means that some companies HAVE to lose, which means that others HAVE to beat the competition. What happens when a company loses? They either go bankrupt or are bought out by their competitors. Either scenario leads to the control of an industry by fewer and fewers companies/factories/corporations. This is the logic of capitalism. Is this not a tendency towards monopoly??? You say that you think monopoly capitalism is the problem. I agree that it's bad. But I disagree that this is not part of capitalism. It's a logical outcome of a system that breeds competition for maximum profit.
In an attempt to protect
Submitted by alhs06 on
In an attempt to protect unfair Capitalistic/Free Market practices, SUCH AS MONOPOLIES, the Antitrust law's were created, & as such Corrupted, repeatedly over the years by the 1%. See the following description of this body of law.
The United States antitrust law is a body of laws that prohibits anti-competitive behavior (monopoly) and unfair business practices. Antitrust laws are intended to encourage competition in the marketplace. These competition laws make illegal certain practices deemed to hurt businesses or consumers or both, or generally to violate standards of ethical behavior. Government agencies known as competition regulators, along with private litigants, apply the antitrust and consumer protection laws in hopes of preventing market failure. The term antitrust was originally formulated to combat "business trusts", now more commonly known as cartels. Other countries use the term "competition law". Many countries including most of the Western world have antitrust laws of some form; for example the European Union has provisions under the Treaty of Rome to maintain fair competition, as does Australia under its Trade Practices Act 1974.
Now some of the recent problems, (an excerpt) Investigations show that energy trading firms have not only exploited recently weakened regulatory oversight, but a new trend of energy traders controlling energy infrastructure assets like pipelines and storage facilities provide additional abilities to use “insider” information to help manipulate markets, link, www.ftc.gov/bcp/workshops/energymarkets/.../slocum_oilgas.pdfTyson Slocum, Director
UN-Checked Capitalism is one of our Nation's Largest Problem's, thus the Corruption of the 1% & their LUST for GREED through our bought out Politician's, of Every Party.
Another change by the Financial Institution that has single handedly destroyed this Country.
Capitalism, like any other philosophy has it's good & it's bad point's. And like any type of institution, can be corrupted. But it's the fairest to the members of society who are given a fair opportunity to participate in & fail or succeed with out any unfair or restrictive practices Bought, not brought, Into law by the temptation of corrupted money of the 1%
My opinion anyway
I love you, man!
Submitted by LovingFighter on
I apologize in advance because for some reason the computer I'm using won't allow me to go back to previous blog posts and I'm just a dummy when it comes to technology. I just happened to find this because it was a recent comment. So this will be my last reply.
I never said that capitalists don't try to implement laws to protect themselves from each other. They do! The thing is.....why do you think these laws get broken time and time again? Operating with a capitlistic logic, these capitalists need to override these anti-trust laws in order to grow. And why do they need to grow? They need to grow in order to remain alive. Because they know that if they don't do so they will get eaten by another capitalist. So try and pass all the antitrust laws that you want, eventually businesses go bankrupt and the number of producers shrinks, thereby concentrating wealth into fewer and fewer hands. The key here is GROW. If the logic of the economic system (not just its laws but the overriding structure of the economy) changes into one where people don't need to compete and eat each other that's great. But hey guess what, that's socialism, buddy. So you can pass all the laws you want. Eventually they get broken and/or repealed, like Glass-Steagal. Just think about this for a minute. We have an economic system in which the rich folk who benefit the most have to protect themselves from the inhumane practices of each other. Ponder that for a bit. Sit on it. Even if you don't believe it, just think about it as if it might be the correct analysis and see how that feels. Then, once you do that, see how it feels to live knowing that perhaps you're wrong in your analysis and that the economic system is really more horrible than you thought it was. I hope this stimulates your appetite for books!
But anyway, I don't think you'll see my point. In any case, don't waste your time replying because I won't be able to see it nor reply any further. But do read a little on the history of economics. And please don't read the sycophants of capitalism (Friedman, the Chicago School, the Austrian school, etc). You should never ask those in power what they think about themselves. You'll never get the truth.
next time you won't just get a hug, you'll also get a kiss. ;)
Submitted by alhs06 on
I'm waiting ...
Okay while I'm waiting for what I hope is a kiss on the cheek & not a sloppy tongue thing or the Mafia Kiss of Death.
1r~ Just saying that the name "LovingFighter", in my 10% wannabe mind, implies a certain right of assumption, my tucked tail apology. Misunderstood it to mean we were fighting on the same team.
2r~ very astute perception of me Babe, you must be a member of the "Sherlock Holmes School of The Obvious" was my quote. I clearly called you a member of the sherlock holmes school for the obviouse, not a Sherlock Holmes
You mean this one accusing Me of all people, as a disfunct WANNABE of the 1%.
3r~ That was pretty rude don't you think? Why would I want to respond to that. Haven't you read any of my other hundreds of post's?
Would you want to respond to me if I were to call you a SUBVERSIVE for the COMMUNIST PARTY? Name calling & divisive tactics I try two ignore, but for your sake I responded to it as you wished. No matter how insulted & betrayed by a perceived Brother it has made me feel. A tactic I would have expected by the 1%.
4r~ Okay ...So again I ask, what country is without a poverty level & those who live below it? What exactly are you Championing as a cause to REPLACE the Capitalistic Nature of Democracy. It's the Corruption & Greed of the 1% we have assembled to defeat, not the Capitalism, or maybe I just missed that part of our rebellion & movement.
In the Immortal words & Wisdom of George Thourougood "Who Do You Love" my brother? And who/what do you fight for my Comrade?
XXXOOO
(Hug) and Muah!
Submitted by LovingFighter on
“You mean this one accusing Me of all people, as a disfunct WANNABE of the 1%.”
With all due respect, I didn’t imply anything. I said that you probably liked the capitalist system—in a historic sense, since I doubt you were alive to live through the pre-monopolistic era—back when there was more competition between different companies, at a time when wealth was less concentrated. Is this not what you’re about? Less control by the 1%??? This means more competition, right? This means less concentration of wealth. I did not call you a wanna be 1%-er. I just said that you would like for capitalism to be more competitive and less monopolistic. My point is that this is utopian (as in impossible, not in the idealist sense). Capitalism has a monopolistic tendency. Read my reply to the comment above asking why capitalism requires poverty by Mahayana.
“That was pretty rude don't you think?"
No, I don’t think it was rude at all, for I did not imply what you thought I did. Again, you misunderstood me.
“Haven't you read any of my other hundreds of post's?””
No I haven’t seen them. Frankly this is the first time I come across your posts. If we have more in common then great, but if I think you're mistaken on something I WILL let you know what I think because I'm not about keeping knowledge hostage. I wanna share it with people, and so I'm sharing it with you!
“Name calling & divisive tactics I try two ignore”
Again, I did not call you anything. Just because you think I called you something it doesn’t mean that I did. I'm sorry if you felt insulted but I did not insult you. I was only pointing out to you what you are saying. To recap: you are saying that capitalism is good as long as it’s not monopolistic like the way it is now, controlled by the 1%. Implicit in that is a support for poverty, even though you don’t realize it. Now I’m telling you that capitalism requires poverty. If you disagree then fine, but explain to me why you disagree. So far you haven't. Your only answer to that is "what country is without a poverty level?" And this is no answer. Are you going to keep insisting that capitalism is still good even though it requires poverty? If no, then good. You’re starting to think outside the box and making progress, attaining a more open mind. If yes, then stop criticizing Ruth for being insensitive to homeless people, since you are also insensitive to them. That was my whole point!
“So again I ask, what country is without a poverty level & those who live below it?”
None! But here’s a more relevant question: what country has conquered the laws of capitalism???? None!!!! Even Venezuela and Bolivia remain capitalist even though they have socialist governments! Socialism is not only about having a good government, it's about changing the way the laws of capitalism affect the economy, and this can only be done at an international level, for the economy of all states is interrelated and we know that capitalist countries will fight the socialist tendency to the death! We saw this throughout the 20th century. So you’re right, no country out there has conquered poverty, but my response to that is that no country out there has conquered the law of value perpetuated by capitalism.
“What exactly are you Championing as a cause to REPLACE the Capitalistic Nature of Democracy. It's the Corruption & Greed of the 1% we have assembled to defeat, not the Capitalism, or maybe I just missed that part of our rebellion & movement.”
I am championing that we look at alternative economic systems, that’s all. Let’s look and see what we find. Let’s not insist on capitalism. Look at where it’s gotten us! And no, you’re wrong that it’s the corruption of the 1%. Corruption has a lot to do with it, but the main problem is that these people operate under a system that rewards this kind of behavior. The problem is not just individuals, the problem is the system that promotes this. If we don’t get rid of the system we won’t get rid of the problem. People’s behaviors can change, but a change of environment is needed as well. People can’t change themselves if they stay in the same environments. Let’s just keep an open mind, that is all I’m saying.
I think there's a lot of misunderstanding going on. If this conversation does not improve I'll just stop replying since it will just divide us even though, as you say, we are on the same side. I'm sorry if I'm not expressing myself in the clearest way. It must be the way I think.
Who do I love? Too many to count. What do I fight for? I fight for the abolition of all kinds of oppression, my comrade.
And next time you won't just get a hug and a kiss. You'll also get an "I love you."
Total agreement. The movement
Submitted by Voodoo-Econo-Mix on
Total agreement. The movement could get crushed by hedonistic behavior on the lawn of the Law. City Hall is no a party place. Party is fine. Music and inspiration beautiful. A couple of video shots on the evening news of recreational smoking out and it could all end swiftly.
voodooeconomix
Inner City Media
http://www.youtube.com/user/InnerCityProjections?feature=mhee
Plan For Rain: agree with everything but comment about weather
Submitted by sfine2 on
I agree, except for this line:
“We have beautiful weather, even in winter, which means camping is easy for us.”
Not for long. Contingency planning is a priority right now, because when the rains come – serious LA rains, for which this region is also famous, the grounds around City Hall will be mud. Mud. Mud everywhere. People will be huddled in their tents whipped by strong slanting cold winds driving torrential rains.
Plan now and it doesn’t have to be so bad.
Those two days of rain the other week were just a preview. The rainy season is coming; even if it is mild, it will transform the cool OLA scene into the mud pits at Woodstock, only that was for one afternoon; this will be for weeks possibly.
OLA leadership needs to PLAN AHEAD now.
Look for a union hall or armory or any other site in the CH area that can serve as a temporary shelter for hundreds of OLA people; a place where they can store their tents and sleep on cots; set up a second kitchen, etc. Then, when the storm is over, return to CH. And do it again, on an as need be basis.
The alternative is to just party on obliviously ‘cause we got the sun, baby, and then be so surprised and demoralized when the first LA monsoon blows in, in which case by day 3 people will start leaving in droves, if not sooner.
Under the first scenario, lining up a rain shelter or two NOW, chaos is averted.
There would still be those who chose to remain camped at CH in their tents no matter how bad the storm is just to make a point, taking a symbolic stand. But they can be rotated in and out with those in the shelters. Therefore, with a little advance planning you can uphold the “occupation” and keep the majority dry, happy, and active.
Support for Responsible behavior
Submitted by Scottpot on
I visited Occupy L.A. during CicLAvia ,smoked a joint there and now after reading the above posts ,admit it was a mistake. Image Is important .Filthy Banksters and Media Propagandists are Well-dressed and would not get any respect if dressed in T-shirts .Sorry thats how it is.Perhaps a trip to Salvation Army for some cheap shirts ,jackets --buisiness suits--- would also be an important visual counter to the prevailing narrative that the Occupy movement is a "bunch of Dirty Hippies ''etc.I wore a $10 suit coat to a protest at Disney Hall last year and got a response from concert -goers that made them think "Here is a Serious successful man.''I became for only 10 bucks, someone who is much more difficult to dismiss as a lunatic."The only way to beat organized money is with organized people''. Keep On.
WE ARE WHO WE ARE
Submitted by alhs06 on
Hypocritical behavior
plus
Hypocritical appearance
equals a
Hypocritical movement
Are we here to represent the Skid Row bums, dirty hippies, stoners, the poor, the disadvantaged or just the middle & upper middle class.
The media perception of us is just that, screw that excuse for stamping our movement as Legit. This is not a fashion show, it's a rebellion & I suggest we treat it us such.
BTW, those stinky, sloppy, pot smoking ill dressed hippies stood up to The National Guard on the campus of Kent State on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis. Anyone here willing to do that?
Those pot smoking ill dressed hippies were very instrumental in bringing our boys home from Vietnam in 74/75.
WE ARE WHO WE ARE and we will fight & win as such.
We are Who We are --I do not
Submitted by Scottpot on
We are Who We are --I do not think it is hypocritical to not smoke a joint anywhere I want even though I really think it is my right to smoke a joint anywhere I want.I understand nobody likes a fake.Yet ,if it is not a fashion show why cling to an outer identity that is counter -productive. And if it the movement is about a message and purpose then wear something mainstream. Then ,the the focus can shift to your message and not your clothes and hygiene.Some people in the movement have to wear the appropriate costumes if you want to be taken seriously. America is an Image based culture. It is all about television,Internet clips,etc.It is about perception.That is reality.
Thank you for that message.
Submitted by Ruby on
Thank you for that message. If it continues to be treated like a party...NOTHING will come of it. It's a very serious issue and message that will be unheard if people think it is a bunch of people partying....how could these people be allowed to dilute this message?
Ruby
Lets make sense
Submitted by alhs06 on
If 25% of the 300 campers are partying, and our movement is derailed by these 75 people, how fragile our we. What does this tell anyone about the strength & momentum of our movement.Why can't we concentrate on the problem bringing this diverse group together & not the ones we perceive as to tear it apart.
Our human nature is never satisfied unless we can find someone or something in order to elevate ourselves over. Isn't just the task of fighting off the greed & corruption of the 1% enough. I agree with Ruth in that we are becoming complacent. If we weren't, we probably wouldn't notice these minor distraction's, if that's how you view them. The real distraction's have yet to arrive folks, if a small group can distract you now, we're gonna be in BIG trouble later.
BTW, leave the hippies & homeless alone, their 99% too.
not all act equal even if wanted to be treated equal.....
Submitted by maryjanie on
unfortunately, ideals and words are not always life's reality ...tho we like to pretend they are..."everyone is just all 'the same' and should be= magical thinking word is ="should".
the top article is well written, pressing allof us to be aware of what is occurring, of how it may endanger or cause more trouble that OLA needs to continue on...
and how so many here need to not just sit back and 'let someone else take care of it...' Each of us needs to be responsible and do something helpful instead of letting 'poor' social behaviors occur right in front of us.
Agreed. And appreciate the writing, bold statements and good intentions.
But this statement below is not for sure a fact, or if it is, let us look up where it is so written as Law or is it Prediction:
"overlooking the very real threat that the Farmers [market] would lose their license, as a direct result of this action. ."
I doubt that any licenses would be lost if they were inconvenienced by occupiers on the land instead of them, and they cannot make money on govt workers who frequent the area's outdoor market...[and because I found their prices for same mdse HIGHER than those of a WLA mkt, I bought nothing there 2 weeks ago]. So these "poor working people" are getting their more than fair share of profits from these sales and the on site sellers are not always the owners of the stalls either. Not the farmers either.
The open use and exposure of much pot and alcohol use is not cool, proper, nor elpful to neighbors = who are not 'using' = and are an easy excuse to use more magical thinking - "I am protected here and can do what the hell I want because I am in a big group who will protect me"...."we are invulnerable because the LAPD has not acted out so far"...etc."
duh.... dumb moves and unclear thinking, of course. This is not a free-for-all, just because donations have been given and fed/served so many here so far.
The Skid Row people did NOT LIVE on these premises so we are not occupying their home territory either. Check that out with any official. These sidewalks do not Belong to anyone in particular and so we are not taking what is 'theirs' either. It is City and not personal property. Remember?
And many of the chronically, forever and after still aimless homeless, tho pitiable and poor, are not just sweet nice people who had bad luck and that's all....unless you like fairy tales and tall tales and movies instead of real life.
Not all bad. Not so good. Mental, some, drug, many, economic too, problems galore, all have a story to tell.
Ask those who monitored the Kitchen tent first 2+ weeks and had a slug fest with the 'homeless' types continually hanging around only where food was provided,= waiting, grabbing and even 'stealing' = as I saw that with my own eyes that young occupiers did not DARE to even stop them....stole food from box saved to feed occupiers !
and ask the Kitchen Monitor who was spat on and cursed and then felt anguished when lots of waters on pallets were STOLEN and the food stored to feed all occupiers was also TAKEN AWAY FROM SITE in large quantities by....thieves or ..... Who did all this ? hmmmmmm
Ask if this happened or not. Some of us heard the despair, anger and frustrations after such things occurred, yes. in our idealistic little world at fancy LA City Hall, lawn and all.
No one to blame ?
No one is all bad.
No one is less than we are.
99% is a huge number and encompasses so many that some of us may not always enjoy camping next to one or another one, or even be able to discuss politics with some sanely too. Then there are Occupiers who blame the workers for not giving away - what is not theirs - more and easily, as in "easy come easy go"...easy to give away what is not yours or your work earned. hmmmmm
So those who are here because it is a fun event, to have fun and meet new people, and get free food and have others to play with or talk to or argue with or just hang around with and also to "Belong" to a non threatening group....well many are here for just those reasons...
while a hopefully LARGER NUMBER of occupiers are here for political CHANGES and for making statements that can stick and reduce the economic, social, political chaos that reins more than before. And to work here in any capacity to help this community remain healthy, sane, communicating and enduring too...and more
Funny how NOW the time has finally come for USA too..to rise up and show some gumption..after being cheated, spun, used and impoverished for so long....and never even knew it before. And it has been a long while that has been going on unadmitted but felt by all us powerless people before now. And now we are here...sorting our selves out or in.
so keep on writing openly and talking directly to all who just want to do 'whatever I feel like" regardless of how it affects the person next to them, or the children present, or the elders or anyone not indulging in whatever is preferred, even in angry speech. Say it like it is and do not be shut down by those who just want what THEYWANTANDNOTHINGELSE.
Be brave. And we will not be shut down at least not for diligently attempting to make positive changes in our personal and our collective lives. Together. Less individually. More in unison.
What was the Plan for dealing with the Homeless
Submitted by alhs06 on
What was the Plan for dealing with the Homeless when we chose our location? Suggested Advice, take an early morning "Pre Dawn" tour of the area surrounding our encampment, the hundreds or thousands you see sleeping on the SIDEWALK have been sleeping there for years, not weeks.
Before you answer, please don't pretend that they didn't exist/reside here. I actually saw them years before we started our encampment, did you, or are you just taking the word of "The Officials"?
If you thought that they would just get "Magically Better" or "Magically Disappear", please reset your "Reality Check Button"
Honestly, move in tent's, food & water into an area that has been a refuge to the homeless for years & expect smooth sailing. By not having a plan, a way to deal with the people who call the streets home, well, calls for another reset of your "Reality Check Button".
It's seems the not so Transparent message of this thread & to those who defend it is.
I am not an Apologist for the Homeless, but I do recognize their lack of Defending themselves on these Forum Threads/Post's.
But Good Tiding's,
There are new Mental Health Facilities opening or planned in Vacaville State Prison, Chino, Stockton & San Luis Obispo. Five new rugs that may fit our solution to this most grievous and destructive crowd.
Disclaimer, some of you will be turned away @ the door. Others will need to learn the "Secret Handshake" & Pass an Apparel & Hygiene Inspection before your allowed entry into the club.
By Order of The OLA Morality & Image Awareness Police
Wow.
Submitted by Farmgirl on
"overlooking the very real threat that the Farmers [market] would lose their license, as a direct result of this action. ."
I doubt that any licenses would be lost if they were inconvenienced by occupiers on the land instead of them, and they cannot make money on govt workers who frequent the area's outdoor market...[and because I found their prices for same mdse HIGHER than those of a WLA mkt, I bought nothing there 2 weeks ago]. So these "poor working people" are getting their more than fair share of profits from these sales and the on site sellers are not always the owners of the stalls either. Not the farmers either.
Really?
The farmers and vendors have been badly hurt by the actions of Occupy L.A.
they have taken the high road and have so far chosen not to share their story.
I can't let this post go however without sharing the facts of this situation.
The farmers, vendors and crafters are independent of each other. They are individual businesses who have built their sales over the last several years at the market and repeat business determines whether or not they can be profitable. The time it takes to become profitable is considered an investment and the ability to make that investment varies. Many cannot take more than a week or two of losses because they operate from week to week. The prices they charge vary from market to market and reflect what they need to make to cover their overhead. Sometimes a base price is set by the market manager and farmers to prevent a farmer from underselling the other farmers. Farmers pay a fee of 6% of their total sales and vendors and crafters pay 10% of their total sales. It is an honor system that works because all depend upon each other to accurately report sales.
Most operate their own stands because they cannot afford to hire workers. Often family members will be employed because they cannot afford to pay a living wage. Those who are employed are making very little money, without benefits. Some are paid based upon their sales although this practice is not acknowledged since the Dept. Of Agriculture forbids it. Farmers travel the greatest distance and the price of fuel is always a concern. To give you an idea, the farm from the Central Valley has another market in San Francisco.
A bad day is a bad week. For a four-hour market, a bad hour is a bad day. Sales are seasonal and headed into an already slow time of year, the high over head and extreme risk will require some to cut their losses and stay home. Last Thursday two farms and three food booths had to make that choice. Others came and lost. The apiary sold only one jar of honey. Most made less than 50% of their normal sales.
It is unclear how long it will take to reestablish repeat sales and foot traffic. People are creatures of habit and sometimes fickle. Some customers will not return and new business will need to be sought.
Market business is of a highly personal nature. Customers and vendors are family. The Civic Center has suffered much over the last couple of years. The market has shared the losses in business but also as friend and witness to furloughs, lay offs, lost benefits and hours. We weekly share our stories and support each other as best we can.
Last Thursday the farmers and vendors behaved in a dignified and kind manner despite their pain and "inconvenience". The farmers' market fiasco might be over for protesters wanting to forget their actions but the story is just beginning for the market. The coming weeks and months will bring new heartache a some will undoubtedly be forced to drop out before the high season begins next Spring.
I stood with a farmer who does not speak English watching a group with 99% signs chanting as they blocked the sidewalk in front of farm stands on Main Street. We looked at each other and just started to laugh. Words couldn't actually begin to describe it.
"wow" sounds like a sympathizer of ONE GROUP over others
Submitted by maryjanie on
the post above describing the poor hard working farmers and market sales people as those who somehow Should have their regular spaces for their sales and their earnings/ profits/ gains GIVEN OVER to them - instead of being used by the movement's occupiers ? That is one pt of VIEW or it is it just another pity-them sympathy story .. ?
pity Poor these people because of their "pain" [ huh? physical, mental, psychological or economical ? ] and their inconvenience ? ....as if someone can't share or move over for a while - for a DIFFERENT CAUSE than personal earnings and gain ?
Why are these people more special or deserving than any others ? because of race, color, appearance or service ?
No one disagrees that everyone SHOULD, if possible, have a job, earnings, sales, gains and use CITY SIDEWALKS ... but no one group has privileges higher or more altruistic than others when there is money exchanged.
At OLA no money is suppose to be exchanged, no profits or earning gained, no one getting more than others, hopefully.
The INTENTIONS of this Movement is to CHANGE how we do businesses and corporations too .... so everyone, including vendors, farmers, profiteers can share more evenly and equitably than is done currently. The purpose of OLA is not to cater to any one special group but to everyone and fairly , or so we have been told repeatedly.
So to tell the sad tale of how this group that has been fortunate to previously set up on City Property and pay a small fee if that is done by the main promoter [as happens elsewhere, a small fee is paid only ] of the market for the use is ok, but when there is a politically change-action- movement like Occupy LA that needs to use the space - for a while - there is no question as to which group helps more people over all and who is more dedicated... more sacrificing for the Changes needed.... more destitute at this moment.... and more purposeful for the 99% of allllll of us...it is not the market people, for sure !
beg to differ with your sympathetic description, and having been part of such market events as well, some of us know that sacrifice and dedication to more global issues is not considered when selling anything...even vegetables/fruit, etc. Can the poor honey seller blame OLA for lack of sales ? huh? Let's get REAL for a change.
Bingo.
Submitted by Farmgirl on
Thanks for clarifying that for me. Can also clarify the 99% percent and the If you hurt one you hurt all slogans?
The Do-Nothings Have Got to Go
Submitted by Francis on
These people are parasites who care more for what they want than for the movement. That was apparent when during open mic after the meeting the other night after a long debate over drug and alcohol use, they lit up a joint while they had the floor and while on the LiveStream in front of Lucero, who had made the proposal to make our occupation a drug-and-alcohol-free space for the sake of not alienating other members of the 99% who come to join our ranks. For these "do-nothings" to disrepect a member who does more than 10 times what all of them do combined for this movement is an outrage. This shows that they care more for smoking weed than in maintaining solidarity with the Movement. This shows that they cannot be reasoned with. For any committed member of the Movement the idea that they are percieved as hurting solidarity would strike a chord. This obviously does not for them.
I believe that marijuana should be legal. I use it myself. But I would never let my use of it jepardize the Movement like these people will.
As the Vanguard for the 99% we have a responsibility to each other and to the people who have yet to rise to EMPOWER each other and to build solidarity, not to ENABLE "do-nothings" to act without regard to consequences. In order to EMPOWER and BUILD SOLIDARITY, we all must adjust ourselves so that we can ACT AS THE 99%.
I read a sign that really struck a chord with me on the first days of occupation that read in part, "If you cannot change your mind, you cannot change anything."
F
race, color, appearance or service ?
Submitted by alhs06 on
Farmgirl's post was nowhere near asking for more special or deserving attention than the rest of the 99%,Farmgirl was merely suggesting that the respect we The 99% expect is all inclusive. Not difficult to see if you actually comprehend what you read, assuming that you read the entire post.
But nice try on the Race Card. Go here, http://occupywallst.org/
then here, http://occupywallst.org/article/September_Revolution/ to Re-Connect to why we are here in the first place & Tattoo the following into your mind. The OWS Call to Arms
Capitalism is not the problem, The corruption by the 1% to manipulate The Capitalistic Structure is our enemy.
To clarify, Occupy LA does
Submitted by Ruth Fowler on
To clarify, Occupy LA does not discriminate between the middle class homeless and the skid row homeless: we feed all we can, we don't turn anyone away - UNLESS VIOLENT, ABUSIVE AND ENGAGING IN PERSISTENT DANGEROUS OR ANTISOCIAL BEHAVIOR. But we do not welcome drug addicts onto our camp because we are a safe space which houses very young children, and our presence is a political statement. Few of us are drug and rehab counsellors and we should not be apologizing for that fact. The skid row bum and the trustafarian who insists on abusing substances are treated exactly alike. We do have vague talk of setting up a needle exchange program, but so far it's vague talk because we lack the facilities, rescources, people power, and training. We have NA onsite and I'm trying to get AA onsite too - AA does a skid row outreach meeting so I'm trying to work with them on that. I'm not apologizing for writing about a skid row bum searching for a vein: why does honesty always provoke such weird reactions in people? PC is a faux liberal bullshit way of avoiding an issue.
BTW, What do people think about a proposal which suggests all occupiers with a tent in Tent City should be obliged to do at least twenty hours of Tent City service a week? Attending actions, helping out with food or clean up, skid row outreach, guerilla gardening, committee meetings... your presence means you are committed to representing the 99%. Your presence means you're committed to putting in hours for the movement.... Curious as to what people think.... Might end the party contingent? Make 'em quit with the bad dubstep, put the glosticks away?
PC is a faux liberal bullshit way of avoiding an issue.
Submitted by alhs06 on
It's actually a comment from a long time practitioner of the Conservative Right, who realized his middle class "American Dream" has been betrayed. So now I'm "expressing" in my new & vindictive, "Down with The Man" attitude of which helps provide sustenance for my insatiable appetite of nurturing solace. The Ancient Roman decadence aint got nothing on me!
Sounds more like a contentious issues that floated up from your subconscious, snuck past your peripheral thoughts & found it's way out as more of a personal annoyance than a colorful commentary in describing the actions of a few, or maybe a few more than a few.
At any rate I'm all worded out on this thread, I was just waiting for Ruth to respond, after all she started this serpentine ride. It was fun.
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