Forums:
[I want to start a pro union affinity group, so we can discuss issues relating to union outreach, and proposals to the outreach and actions committees; and to represent the interests of pro union people at the GA. If you've heard some of the anti union talk, please hear me out before making your decision. Please contact me, and let me know who you are, as I'd like to start a discussion on this at CH, before submitting a formal proposal before the GA.]
Observing the GA tonight, I was disturbed by what I saw. Ground was ceded to literally half a dozen people on a proposition that otherwise had consensus, that had already been voted on and approved days ago (with hard blocks withdrawn privately), and on a topic that had never been a point of contention before in OLA, or in the OWS movement which we're ostensibly supporting.
I have seen bewilderment in many faces (and outrage probably wrenched mine) as "union" suddenly became a dirty word.
Though I can't stay at the occupation 100% of the time, I've been there frequently (camping out when I can) since day one; enough to recall the excitement everyone displayed at the news of the teachers union or the transit union supporting us; how the nurses union demonstrated with us, and how many marched without hesitation alongside the teachers.
The proposal in question was whether to march in support of Hotel Bel-Air workers that'd been laid off. Specifically, whether to support their union march. Again, since this has been done before, here and at OWS, I don't understand the sudden controversy. What happened at the GA shamed me, and it invoked the first tangible doubt I had in the potential of this movement. I still believe in the abilities and commitment of the people involved, but they made a concession I don't believe they had just cause to make, and I don't feel we at the assembly were given much choice but to follow the facilitators' adjustment to the proposition, or reject the thing and go into another round of deliberations, only to see it tabled again.
I speak of the decision to alter the language to exclude "union." Then "worker" was no longer acceptable, and it became "person" or "human" or some such bullshit. How about mammal? Vertebrate? Carbon-based life form? Superficially, it seems an argument of petty semantics, but it isn't: the GA was railroaded by a small and disproportionately vocal and domineering minority into abandoning support for the unions, in favor of some vague entity that isn't a union member, and isn't even a worker. What are we eve supporting them in anymore if we don't give a shit about the one piece of leverage they have?
Concerns have been raised about co-opting, that unions contribute to Democrats, etc. Think -- consider the alternative. The Democrats had, historically, been supportive of labor. Even if the Democrats have drifted further right and corporatist, it remains that the big corporations generally throw heaps of cash at the Republicans, fiscal libertarians, and other neoconservative groups. In a two party system there is little choice; while it might be futile for unions to seek balance through their more meager donations to a party as sold out as the Dems, it's hard to fault them for making do.
People have said unions are corrupt. Anything can be corrupt, but again, consider the alternative. Workers without any organized representation to leverage the collective will of the employees against their employers get exploited. They lose their benefits, their wages shrink, job security vanish, they work longer hours, and in worse conditions. The work situation has degenerated in parallel with the loss of unions, following the chilling effect of Reagan's firing of the air traffic controllers. The alternative to unions: relying on the kindness of corporations.
You have to read between the lines. When someone criticizes something, what exactly are they advocating ("End the Fed")? When they want to destroy something, what will rush in to fill the void?
Continuing with a previous post of mine:
As I've said in my USPS thread, if we ignore unions but somehow expect to fight for working people, we're parking an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff.
Unions aren't exclusively a liberal domain, in spite of what the media says. They are working people of differing social views utilizing the last, and dwindling, mechanism for balancing power with their employers; ignore them, let them die off, and we're stuck having to rebuild something similar with no existing examples and zero foothold.
What's important to emphasize here is that people in unions will differ more on social issues than fiscal ones. The very nature of a union suggests acknowledging the adversarial stalemate that prevents corporations from doing... well, exactly what we see today: exploiting the living shit out of their employees.
Look at our camp and tell me social conservatives will feel at home there. All people are welcome, but not everyone will feel so, because some will be prejudiced -- be it against ethnicities, nationalities, sexual orientations, lifestyles, etc. There are also tons of mainstream people, because the goals, thought varied, are obvious in their general direction. While I hope the majority, regardless of social stances, will see the pragmatism in fighting for economic issues, the fact remains there will always be some segment of the population, middle class, underclass or otherwise, that will disagree even on economic terms (such as those who go out of their way to defend billionaires, believing their money signals their merit, and that we should all just live with it, and aspire to magically defy probability and "work hard" to become rich ourselves, even if the circumstances of the economy are demonstrably stacked against the likelihood).
We should emphasize independence from specific unions, and be wary of those with histories of corruption, but we represent working class people, and so do unions. Unions work, and they've accomplished goals similar to many of ours: better pay, job security, safer conditions, shorter hours, benefits, etc.
If we remain paralyzed by a fear that the media will demonize any trace of identity within the movement, we prolong the likelihood of being co-opted by another group; especially one backed by money and mainstream media. Any media outlet determined to do so will misrepresent what we're doing, whether out of malice or laziness. Point a camera at the shirtless guy burning incense, and we're a hippie commune. Show the signs with the pyramids with eyeballs, and we're conspiracy theorists. Show the Ron Paul signs, and we're libertarians. None of these things are accurate in describing the thousands upon thousands of people who've passed through to show their support. But if they'd had a problem with something, there'd be no shortage of targets for their objections. I'd like to give people more credit than that, and not try to gain their support by remaining a blank slate.
The fact is anything can be inflated to wrongly represent the whole. It behooves us to put forward at least a general message of purpose, and of independence, so we can be free to pursue the democratically chosen objectives, while having something readily available to clarify our positions when the inevitable misrepresentation takes place.
That's my take on the matter, and I think it's consistent with OWS's work.
I do agree this can't be a unilateral thing, and I'd expect the unions to support the occupation as well, at least in daytime demonstrations.

Support
Submitted by nobody on
Support
Excerpt from Ruth Fowler Blog
Submitted by Mahayana on
I think she sums it up pretty well:
Full blog here: http://www.occupylosangeles.org/?q=node/670
"Even those ostensibly, ‘on the Occupation’s side’ don’t seem to get their point: that this is a movement representing the 99%, the people. It is not affiliated with, or funded by, any Trade Union, political party, social or economic class, any race or any organization, although we welcome support and donations, including those who may identify with these groups. We distinguish ourselves from the 1% only - the 1% who represent a corrupt corporatocracy. Despite this, we have Trade Unions attempting to co-opt us and insisting we align ourselves politically with them. A refusal to do so has been taken by many Trade Unionists as “Union bashing” - despite Occupiers’ reasons for not being co-opted by them is simply that we represent the people and direct democracy, the power of consensus. To then represent an organization’s interest - an organization which represents only 20% of the population - directly contradicts The Principles of Solidarity adopted by Occupy Wall Street. Even moveon.org, a liberal media outlet, attempted to claim credit for the Wall Street Movement in an attempt, perhaps, to gain traction for their own campaigns. Occupy Wall Street and its fraternal offshoots is a movement which has evolved naturally and without ulterior motive other than a demand for transparent democracy which serves the people."
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves - in their separate, and individual capacities. -Abe
unions represent workers resistance to corporations
Submitted by Lee on
Unions such as the United Steel Workers, the largest industrial union in the US with over 700,000 members, have won great battles against corporations. The steelworkers and the longshoremans union risked arrest to fight for the release of hundreds of young protesters against the WTO and corporate greed in Seattle. My union spends almost all its time and energy fighting for public higher education to be funded, for universities to be more democratic, and for student needs to be met,including the call for the super-rich to be taxed fairly. A lot of people don't know that 70-75% of college faculty in the country are classified as temporary employees, and our pay, working conditions and job security are very low. I wish the union didn't give money to California Democrats, but it's not what most defines who we are.
I think the occupy movement will grow greatly by allying with unions, and I think unions will become more grassroots directed and be able to rely more on an independent movement against the 1% and move away from dependence on the Dems.
At the same time, I think it's key for occupy to stay a direct democracy, and ally but not get into a long term formal coalition with unions, because then the equality of every single person would be subsumed. But tht's different from endorsing, supporting and participating in specific protests and strike actions by unions.
From what I am reading on a number of threads, there's still a lot of work to be done to make the direct democracy/real equality work better. I hope everybody stays with it despite the frustrations and disappointments! It's a long term process, that hopefully will empower more and more people and really be 'what democracy looks like.'
I have only been down 3 times so far, trying to get down there later today.
peace, Lee
Leone
the union thing
Submitted by Supersean on
regardless of what any of us think of the motives of unions, the fact is they give lots of money to our politicians, the vast majority going to Democrats. If we're working under the hypothesis that money corrupts the political process, how are we to differentiate between union money and corporate money? that's why I advocate getting ALL money out of politics.
Until we admit that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, the OWS will continue to be resisted on the assumption that it is a tool of the Democratic Party.
Supporting unions isn't
Submitted by cryptomnesiac on
Supporting unions isn't becoming a tool of either party unless we fail to make our position on parties clear. There are Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, independents, anarchists, communists, etc., among our group. Each marches with his or her own sign, freely expressing their own views under the banner of the 99%. Either we censor them to stay "on message," or we acknowledge that the 99% is an umbrella for the views and affiliations of all who support the rights of the 99%, however they choose to express that.
If we're not afraid of the often bizarre messages people are espousing as individuals, why are we suddenly siezed with anxiety that outreach and cooperation will "send the wrong message?" What is this grand, generic, all-inclusive message we want to send, that's also specific and bold enough to make things change for the better? I don't see how being completely vague and inert, and having specific demands and objectives, are reconcilable ideas. I question the motives and integrity of anyone suggesting as much.
There are some people, technically within the 99% statistic, that will not support our premise on any grounds. They'll be against workers rights, even if it makes no sense to be so.
The choice we face is:
Do we take a stand and articulate our positions clearly and consistently, or do we try to look as neutral as possible, hoping to build up an even bigger and more incoherent group of people we tricked into joining by taking no tangible, practical position on anything?
As I'd said, some unions have contributed to Democrats because:
1. Democrats have historically been pro labor; much more so than Republicans...
2. ...to whom their bosses are giving MUCH MORE MONEY.
We all have reservations about being co-opted or hijacked by other groups; unions included (I'm more worried about the City Council, to be honest). I understand that, which is why I strongly suggest we make our platform clearly, consistently, independent. We must reject, in advance, ANYONE, who claims to speak for us; which also means defining which channel of our own communications to the outside world that we can consider "official." That is, where do we release those ideas that have come about through consensus, and how do we make them verifiable versus some random individual's opinions? It must be obvious at all times that our support for anything will be as an autonomous entity, and that such support can easily be withdrawn.
While some among us who supposedly support unions are contrarily against supporting them in any public sense, there are people totally opposed to unions and any kind of labor organization: the 1% and Republicans.
Unions are the sole defense average workers have against the exploitative whims of their employers. With their decline have come reductions in safety, pay, benefits, and all other things that make working class life possible; things that executives can squeeze money out of by weakening and destroying.
Mike C.
Buffalo Beast - Twitter - Facebook
We Support All Workers
Submitted by daniil on
Even workers who AREN'T in unions (and the vast majority aren't). Furthermore, we don't support teamsters going gangbusters with bats, or nepotism, or union leaders who earn $200,000 per year for organizing "the workers" who get paid $50 / hour for taking a vacation. Unions have done a lot of good in this country, but they have largely been corrupted. We need to protect the right to organize workers, but there are many established unions that are more or less just nepotistic gangs that look after "their own". Not all unions are like this, but many are.
It would be great if we could all be in unions, but that would mean less to go around now wouldn't it ;-)
clarification
Submitted by Supersean on
my comment should in no way be interpreted as anti-worker. I support workers too, but the unions that "represent" them are political actors who are part of the problem when it comes to money in politics.
Being pro worker but anti
Submitted by cryptomnesiac on
Being pro worker but anti union is like supporting Americans while dismantling democracy. When a union is chilled out of existense, the workers have nothing between themselves and the will of their employer. If we don't support unions, what exactly is supposed to be in place to preserve the rights of the workers?
When this movement is over, and let's say we got some headway toward improving the situation for workers, are we just going to go home and watch the corporations take that ground back? If the workers have no leverage, which they won't without organization, there is absolutely nothing preventing the employers simply resuming business as usual.
Consider unions the practical manifestation of regulation at the employee level. They're the ones who know the situation at a workplace, the ones who will remain to keep watch, and organize, once the rest of us have moved on. If we leave people without any method of balancing power with corporations, we are throwing them right back to the wolves.
Mike C.
Buffalo Beast - Twitter - Facebook
misunderstood
Submitted by Supersean on
you may be misunderstanding me here. I'm not anti-union or anti-corporation, I'm anti-the influence of money on politics. A 'sin' that both are guilty of.
I disagree that the unions are the ONLY protection workers have. First, only 9% are actually in unions. Second, our elected representatives could do the job of protecting workers if they weren't being bribed by their bosses.
I'm not trying to
Submitted by cryptomnesiac on
I'm not trying to misrepresent your views, I'm trying to follow them to their logical conclusion.
We can't "support workers" without understanding the necessity for a lasting protection from the will of their employers. If those workers are unionized -- unless there's some damn specific reason not to -- supporting them means supporting their right to organize.
We do need to get money out of politics (I've been promoting Dylan Ratigan's constitutional amendment, from getmoneyout.com), but that doesn't START with the unions and more than it starts with individuals who voted for or contributed to candidate xyz. Until we do that, some unions will contribute to the lesser of the two evils (though the distinction is marginal and shrinking), because their company is contributing MUCH MORE to the side trying to undermine the workers.
We can't heap EVERY ISSUE on single groups, expecting them to become perfect ideological models before we'll support them. In my opinion, the fact that they can protect the interests of workers in a way NO ONE ELSE WILL, overshadows their political affiliations -- affiliations which we can explicitly distance ourselves from, and will HAVE TO ANYWAY, regardless of what else we do.
Any rhetoric that treats the moribund unions and their piddly contributions to politics as the direct equivalent in intensity and motive to corporate lobbying is incredibly suspect to me. That is the canard of Republican smear campaigns. This or that politician is always beholden to "big union," or "special interests," while they ignore the blatant bribery taking place from corporations who will DIRECTLY BENEFIT once their candidate is elected (and will also directly benefit from the death of unions).
Working people aren't some abstraction; they have specific priorities and problems to address. They have infrastructure like unions they may be better off preserving. Rather than burning it all down, with no plan on how or what to rebuild, we have to speak of specific groups, specific unions, and figure out what the fix is. I heard nothing to suggest that the union representing the laid off Bel-Air Hotel workers was some kind of nightmarish "On The Waterfront" organization. If they are, I want someone to explain that, and why we should want to dissociate ourselves so completely from that union that our support becomes some comical advocacy for "humans" to do something or another.
Mike C.
Buffalo Beast - Twitter - Facebook
i hear you man
Submitted by Supersean on
please, don't take my word for it. opensecrets.org has agreat searchable database of money in politics. It's a strange world we live in when $100,000,000 is 'piddly' (the amount just SEIU has 'donated' over the last 22 years), but here we are. Yes, some sectors have spen waaaay more on bribing politicians, but like I said, unions are PART of the problem.
I still hold that the representatives that we have elected CAN do their jobs if we can eliminate the bribery that has become part and parcel to the status quo. I don't believe that OWS can succeed if we choose to align ourselves with the lesser of two evils. I think we're doing this FOR Americans, not against corporations or Republicans. And no, that's not the same thing.
for clarity
Submitted by Supersean on
my position isn't anti-corporation, anti-union or anti-Republican. It's pro-America. At the risk of sounding like a Tea Partyer, I want to take my country back-from ANYONE who is willing to buy the influence of our representatives at the expense or benefit of their constituents.
Well said.
Submitted by Fex on
@Supersean Couldn't agree more.
"Word following word- I wrought words. Deed following deed, I wrought deeds." - The Havamal
@daniil
Submitted by cryptomnesiac on
@daniil
I don't know if you're being serious or not with those bombastic examples, but you're basically projecting our indictment of the 1% onto union representation, at a smaller scale.
Let me make an important distinction: unions have the potential to become corrupt, and with that useless, or harmful to their members. Governments have the same potential.
For big corporations, this is NOT A POTENTIAL, IT IS BUSINESS AS USUAL. For Republicans, who are uniformly anti labor, punishing the workers and rewarding a tiny minority of people represents THINGS GOING WELL.
Workers without any representation are just SITTING DUCKS for their boss's whims.
Mike C.
Buffalo Beast - Twitter - Facebook
Compromise & Balance
Submitted by JoviMan on
This is a great topic, a very important one as it directly affects messaging and the identity of this movement. I think we can all agree that the Occupation will die or, at best, render itself ineffective if large segments of Americans feel alienated from the protests. The goal is to spur a massive number of citizens to join the protests which will give this movement the leverage it needs to effect significant change. I don't believe anyone here wants to alienate anyone else; let's remember that, we are all in this together! Mike C. makes a great point about how unions have always been on the side of workers. Danil is also correct that most workers these days are not represented by a union and sometimes the union interests fail to take into account reality (public school reform comes to mind, and for the record, there are unions out there whose leaders make $400,000 plus, I know, I work for one). That said, no one here is suggesting to get rid of unions or to forbid union members from joining the ranks of the Occupation. But aligning ourselves with one will inevitably add to the attempt by Democrats and Republicans to use this movement as another way to divide Americans (see the front page of today's NY Times). We must reject all forms of political organization except our own but we shall never reject any INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEING who subscribes to the core principle(s) of this movement. This is where I think the potential Achilles Heel with this movement lies: what do we fundamentally stand for and therefore, what do we fundamentally want? The answer to this question will either serve to unite most of this country or just further divide it. I am a strong supporter of using campaign finance and lobbying reform as the centerpiece of any mission statement/demand. Working and middle-class Americans cannot afford an effective lobbying firm; the few public/consumer-oriented non-profits that can are completely out-funded by corporations and yes, large unions too. Working and middle-class Americans cannot afford to spend the thousands, in some cases, millions of dollars every election season that inevitably sway public policymakers, the very people we "elected" to represent us! Let's keep working toward compromise and balance. It's the only way! PS You and everyone in this movement is an inspiration. Together, we will find our voice.
+
Submitted by Supersean on
well put.
@JoviMan
Submitted by cryptomnesiac on
@JoviMan
I appreciate your reluctance to make alliances, especially when they risk annexing the movement as an appendage to their own ends. It'd be a terrible idea to take this thing that was built of so much effort, and just let some opportunist grab it away. That's not what I'm advocating.
There is nothing inherently wrong or negative about believing in "individual human beings," etc., but it strips the context of what we're working with. The fact is that the few workers that are unionized are under attack by their corporations, which want to separate them into scared, atomized, divided individual human beings that they can grind into the ground with impunity. Alone, they are f*cked; and without organization they are alone. There are workers today that would like to unionize, like the many in the low wage retail McJobs spurred by our "recovery." Companies like Wal-Mart and Apple produce a chilling effect, though, instilling in workers the certainty that organizing will get them fired. The whole point of organizing in the first place is to alleviate such arbitrary or politically-motivated attacks on the workforce.
If we focus on the "human being" in a sentimental way, rather than recognizing the practical reality that it's only by the ongoing cooperation of his or her peers that their rights are protected, we're giving corporations the same easy targets they had before; each worker becomes a wounded buffalo calf trailing across the open plains, awaiting the inevitable.
If protection can be provided at a federal level, great. Let's do that. A mandatory living wage, get OSHA back on the stick, etc. But it remains that there are still things specific to given industries, having to do with health and safety, hours, and other conditions specific to the jobs themselves, which are better understood by the people working there. Taking technical issues about chemical exposures, necessary rest periods, and other idiocyncracies of an industry to a federal level will not provide it an informed and interested audience.
If there's an alternative that would provide ongoing, industry-specific protection to workers from the whims of their employers, I'd like to hear it, and I'd like to see it proposed.
Mike C.
Buffalo Beast - Twitter - Facebook
Don't we already have the
Submitted by Supersean on
Don't we already have the regulatory institutions that you're advocating for? OSHA, CalOSHA, et. al.
I don't see why we need to re-invent the wheel, just make it so the regulatory agencies can't be captured by well-placed bribes and regulate the 'revolving door'.
You obviously don't remember
Submitted by nobody on
You obviously don't remember OSHA and the Department of Labor under the Bush administration. They sucked. I think EEOC also sucked.
They're more pro-worker under Obama.
of course I remember the Bush
Submitted by Supersean on
of course I remember the Bush administration, and Clinton's, the other Bush's, and Reagan's- Carter's and Ford's not so much. Each one marked by more legalized bribery than the last. If we get the money out of the picture and minmize the 'revolving door' I have faith that our representatives and regulators can do their job. Don't you? If not then all is already lost.
I think I've made my position
Submitted by cryptomnesiac on
I think I've made my position abundantly clear, so I won't belabor the point.
This isn't anything official, that's gone through any channels, but I want to get a reaction to some language. What would you think if this were said of the movement?
Mike C.
Buffalo Beast - Twitter - Facebook
don't mean to be-labor
Submitted by Supersean on
good pun btw!
I dont wanna keep going around and round either. Perhaps this is just a philosophical difference. I think America works as it was meant to, before we legalized the bribes that is. I feel like once we address the big issue, money in politics, all of these specific issues will take care of themselves. And if they don't, we just vote in a guy who will make it happen. Once the money is out of it we wont have to worry about the crook politician outspending the right-acting one 10 to 1.
Supersean is correct
Submitted by alhs06 on
I agree with what you just wrote. The money available to some, not all, but to those elected officials who demonstrate or prostrate their office in welcoming the "Donation's". Must be removed from the corrupting factions who would attempt through legal bribery to corrupt our system & the policy makers elected to protect it.
"Long Live Occupy, Long Live The 99%"
I think that perhaps this
Submitted by estebanmgil on
I think that perhaps this relates to the somewhate unnecessary discord perceived over supporting or not supporting the march being put on by laid-off hotel workers in Bel-Air.
The problem comes with how proposals and ideas are framed in GA. Not everyone wrote their undergrad thesis on communications and public messaging strategy, so it's understandable that when proposals are made, they're often poorly framed and don't touch the audience the way the author intended.
At issue here were multiple facets of the direction of the movement. 1. Do we support workers? On this point, consensus was reached, and the Action team will be organizing a supporting event with the hotel workers. A clarifying statement was added which makes our support for workers distinct from a possible acceptance of institutionalized organized labor. Which brings me to point 2. How do we deal with support from outside organizations? This is an important question, but one which has little to do with the issue discussed yesterday...whether or not to march in solidarity with workers who were laid off.
My understanding is that some things broke down yesterday when a certain individual jumped the stack and hijacked the microphone because he/she wanted to be heard and had been waiting a while to speak. Was this a provocative act intended to cause discord? Perhaps. We can't discount the fact that as this movement grows it will attract provacative elements and people who wish to do us harm by infiltrating our ranks in order to sow division. I think it probably had more to do with a misunderstanding of process, and an impatience at having to balance wanting to be heard, and needing to listen.
When proposals are framed correctly from the start---which means they are kept specific, simple, and without too many attachments, then--then they can be discussed rationally and consented to with less contention (although contention is necessary).
I think however, we need to understand fundamentally that this is a slow process (building consensus) and it requires time. Is it frustrating that it took two hours to come to agreement about supporting the march? Yes. But it was an important baby-step in creating discussion and direction for the movement. Now the conversation can begin: We support workers. But how do we accept or deal with support from institutionalized organizations which claim to represent workers? How do we maintain a critical stance towards them? And, importantly, what is it about these organizations we dislike and wish to transform?
--
Submitted by Karhen on
--
Takeover?
Submitted by nobody on
If you're worried about "takeover", the problem isn't the strength of your allies, but the weakness of your organization.
One way to avoid takeover is to have some kind of constitution that defines the organization. It need not be comprehensive - in fact it should be lean and minimal to make it flexible. Past anarchist organizations have issued "points of unity" that defined what all members and all affinity groups agree with. The points, de facto, define the boundaries of the organization. A union, for example, probably would not conform to the points of unity because they are probably not using consensus-based decision making. (IWW would be a notable exception.)
The local KPFK host Chris Burnett has been invovled in making the points for Indymedia and other projects. As I recall, the Indymedia points were a dozen principles that basically defined the structure of all member organizations. I can contact him if OLA wishes.
As far as filling the void is concerned...
Submitted by daniil on
We will fill the void. That's what the general assemblies are, that's what they do. In essence, economics is simply a means by which people get what they need or want. The "Capitalism vs. Socialism" debate is much like "Coke vs. Pepsi." Both are bad for you. Both involve delegating responsibility for your life and livelihood to someone else. Both eventually lead to totalitarianism.
My hope is that union workers will join non-union workers and represent themselves with peoples' assemblies. The assemblies should be open to both producers and consumers of a good. This is participatory economics and direct democracy. This is the best way to fairly control the means of production.
Socialism and communism is
Submitted by nobody on
Socialism and communism is coke vs pepsi? Coke vs. Pepsi is capitalism vs. capitalism - that's capitalist totalitarianism disgusing itself as consumer choice.
The ideal of communism, which commies say has never been achieved, is the idea that people will live in communes or small villages that democratically coordinate production. Yes, it never happened. But a modified vision of communism did re-emerge in later socialist party revolutions in agrarian countries in Central America and the Philippines as the idea of "land reform" where farmers on leases would be promised their own plot of land after the revolution (provided they participated in the revolution of course).
I'm not sure why this happened, but maybe it's related to the failure of collectivization of farms in the larger communist countries (USSR and China). The socialist parties essentially ended up taking the political position advocated by anarchists in the past, to spread the wealth rather than transfer it to a "dictatorship of the proletariat."
If socialism and communism is
Submitted by LastChance on
If socialism and communism is like coke vs, pepsi ... I want a bloody orange soda meaning a whole new style aka a venus project type of socecity but that might just be me being a dreamer haha
Is it to late to march with
Submitted by welcometothemachine on
Is it to late to march with the bel air union?
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